Wednesday, July 29, 2020

Episode 86: Conversations - Grace Tierney Transcript

This week we had an actual transcript constructed because it was an interview episode. We didn't even create show notes for this one. So click on the "Read More" below for the written transcript for our Conversation with Grace Tierney.

A quick note about timestamps... the audio is created without intro music. So it's exactly 13 seconds ahead of what you should find on the podcast. Hope that helps, and sorry about the confusion. - Dan

Dan Pugh (00:00):

Welcome to Bunny Trails, a whimsical adventure of idioms and other turns of phrase. I'm Dan Pugh,

Shauna Harrison (00:05):

And I'm Shauna Harrison. Usually on Bunny Trails, we bring to life the story of an English phrase to see where it came from and how it has been used over time. But this week we are going to try to do something a little bit different. As we started season three in January 2020, we mentioned our desire to do a couple of interviews with interesting word nerds this year. And then this Coronavirus turned everything upside down for us, but we finally been able to get the first of our interviews ready to go.

Dan Pugh (00:37):

This week. We talk with Grace Tierney. Grace is the author of the book "Words The Sea Gave Us" available for purchase now. We talk with Grace about nautical words, the book writing process, bringing back some interesting words, NaNoWriMo, which is the national novel writing month and Moby Dick's contribution to our knowledge of sailor speak. One conversation we have towards the end of this episode is an almost nautical take on how to answer the phone. We were so wrapped up in laughing together that we didn't actually mention the history, which is something Grace covers in her book. It's one of those things where we knew what we were talking about, but we didn't really explain it for anyone else who may not know what we were talking about. So it will be helpful for you to know that Alexander Graham Bell was a Scottish scientist and co-inventor of the telephone. Grace mentions in her book that Bell believed the correct way to answer the phone was with a cheerful Ahoy! But Thomas Edison preferred hello. And that's what stuck. So Grace points out the correct reply to a Ahoy! on the telephone, should you wish to revive the idea, is hoy.

Shauna Harrison (01:48):

You can find Grace Tierney on Twitter @wordfoolery. You can also find her other work, including books she has written and her weekly word nerd missives on her blog and a note of quick, thanks to our patrons for sponsoring today's episode, with a special shout out to Pat Rowe and Mary Lopez. And now without further ado, a conversation with author Grace Tierney.

Dan Pugh (02:16):

So Grace, welcome to Bunny trails.

Grace Tierney (02:18):

Thank you very much. It's really nice to be here.

Shauna Harrison (02:20):

So I love the cover of your book because I'm into design stuff. So how much did you have involvement wise on the design of it?

Grace Tierney (02:31):

I was incredibly lucky because a friend of mine is married to a designer and he doesn't actually do book covers. He, um, used to design, uh, pens for one blog and ergonomic keyboards for logictech. He's done amazing industrial designs, but because he's a friend and he's a friend of my blog. He likes words as well. He offered to do the book design as a gift, basically extremely lucky. And he spent lot of time playing around with us was ultimately, I pretty much tell them the text I want on the cover. And then he goes away and comes back with something amazing. And I go, that's great. So I had very little input into as apart from using it, but I really, really like it. I think he's very talented. I think it makes my book look better than it actually is. But don't tell anybody that.

Shauna Harrison (03:23):

Well, it's wonderful. Love it.

Dan Pugh (03:24):

Yeah. So I read it and, uh, it's very, it's very interesting cause there's a lot of terms in there that I like, I didn't know that it was nautical in nature or some that you cover that, uh, actually aren't natuical in nature that, that, uh, you know, we might think are, uh, so what was your doing this research? What was the favorite nautical phrase you came across?

Grace Tierney (03:45):

I knew you were going to ask me this and I do think this is a bit like asking a mother to choose her favorite child. So I think very cruel question, first of all, just like to register that. And I did think when I was writing the book what my favorite word was, which was gollywobbler, which is a particular type of sail, but I just like it because it's a cool word. And it sounds fun when you say it. Phrase wise, I think my favorite is burning your boats. And I think that's for two reasons, one, because it's quite evocative and it's a word I use, a phrase, I use a lot myself, but I had never really thought about the impact of what that meant in reality is if your boats are burns, you really are up the proverbial Creek. Um, and it has a lots of history behind it. It goes back to Greco, Roman times, conquistadors, and that added a whole other level once I started looking at it, but I just like it and it's not a good thing to do, but it's a great phrase.

Shauna Harrison (04:47):

Yeah, it is definitely you're putting it all out there. You're you're in. And so I like that phrase, um, one of my favorite words is on the cover and it's a scuttlebutt and uh, I just, it makes me laugh. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious about this. What's something that you learned during your research that surprised you?

Grace Tierney (05:10):

A whole load of things surprise me. Because like Dan said, a lot of these things, aren't words or phrases that you would automatically associate with boats, things that you'd hear in the average office or, you know, skyscrapers actually is a sail long before it's ever a tall building. I would never have known that. So maybe you might know, and from interesting podcasts and books that the sheer variety of it was huge. I know I do talk in the book about, I think the sea connects all the lands and all the languages and that sailors really brought words from different languages into English and into different usages on shore and what it was much more widespread than I expected. I thought this was going to be a shorter book than it turned out to be, but that's a good thing and value for money and all that, but it was longer than I expected. And I did cut sizable bits out of it because it was simply too long. Um, one thing that I particularly liked was the connection between sailing ships on to air flight and ultimately on to space flight. A friend of mine actually put this onto me.

Grace Tierney (06:18):

Uh, originally he's an amateur sailor, but he's also a retired pilot and he's in by writing group and he suggested a couple of phrases. He did say, look, you do realize some of the words have a crossover. So things like chocks away, failing propeller, purser crew, Roger pilot, golly, those were all on boats long before they were ever on planes. Then when planes went into flight and space flight, they took a whole load of those words with them. So one of the ones that I would have noticed was I talk about walking the plank in the pirate section and the fact that actually they didn't really do that very much, which is very disappointing actually. Cause I love my pirates. That's why there's a pirate sections cause I love pirates, but uh, sadly some of the things were fictional. It turns out there is walking the plank in star Wars, for example, except it's not water it's over sand.

Grace Tierney (07:13):

So when you start looking at these things, you start seeing them everywhere. The one that I also liked was the connection between Christopher Columbus and the moon landings, which I would never have anticipated discovering. So that was the word hammock, which came from South America and from languages that are not originally from English. He brought the ideas of hammocks back before that on the boats, they would have had the bunks, which are okay, but you can roll out of them, which obviously isn't a good thing in a high seat. So when they realized they could sleep better and hammocks they caught on big time, they could fit more crew under the decks. Um, and that transferred. And ultimately there were hammocks in the lunar landing module for the Apollo missions, which I thought just blows my mind. I love that. It goes Hammocks in the jungle to on the moon. I just think that's great.

Shauna Harrison (08:05):

That's awesome. I, um, I'm going to say too, I've been on a couple of cruises and um, one of those decided to take us through a hurricane and having experienced that. I'm going to say that I would choose a hammock any day on any ship. Just give me the hammock.

Grace Tierney (08:24):

I do own a hammock and I do not sleep. It's very nice when the weather cooperates, we have it up in the backyard, but they're very difficult to get in and out of, in any sort of elegant fashion. I imagine you get good at that if you're a sailor, but I have not.

Shauna Harrison (08:40):

I mean, I'm just generally clumsy, so I'm not sure any amount of practice would result in improvement.

Grace Tierney (08:48):

I might be like that, too.

Dan Pugh (08:49):

Tell me something that didn't make it into the book that you found interesting, but you just had to cut for time or space or length reasons.

Grace Tierney (08:57):

There are always inevitably things you have to cut. It's quite a long process putting these books together because obviously you have to try and find all the candidate words and then research each one. And some of them will simply turn out to be actually quite boring. In which case they don't make the cut. Or their not nautical. And you're like, ah, I think he wants to use that. That okays me that'll get filed away and kind of like, Oh yes, but I could use that in a future blog post or whatever. And I still get my use out of it, but there's quite a long document on my laptop somewhere of all the ones that didn't make the cut. The, uh, the one that I discovered and realized this week was because it's all gone now to print and ship and it's lighthouse. And it's really not interesting enough to put in because it's literally a compact word of light and house the house with the light on top.

Grace Tierney (09:47):

I really love light as this. If you do have a look at my Twitter feed at any point, you will periodically see me standing in front of a lighthouse, looking really cheerful because I just liked life. And I think most people that like the sea and beachcombing and sailing have a real love for Lighthouse's cause they keep us safe. And they've a romantic backstory, I think, but, they're just not interesting enough to be in the book. Now the other thing which was much more major was I had a huge chapter, which is why I got cut called various vessels. And it was shipped names from ark right through to yaw and because all the chapters are alphabetical. I don't know if you noticed that it was explaining different ones, the different types, they were the sorts of ranking they have, you know, did they develop in China or are just in Germany or whatever? I find it interesting, but I think ultimately it might be a bit too niche for the book.

Shauna Harrison (10:42):

It kind of sounds like its own book.

Grace Tierney (10:45):

Oh, It almost became that. And to be honest, as I do say in the intro, I'm not a sailor, I love all this stuff, but I'm not technical. And I did have to work at what fore and aft rigging was and what a stay sail was and talk gallons. And you're like, Oh gosh, a lot of my life has gone into working this stuff I had. And so I didn't when you cut that big of a chunk out, it's just devastating as a writer because you've put so much work into researching. So what I decided to do instead was to put it out as a free download on my blog. So if somebody really loves boats and wants to find out about both things, they can go and get that for free. And that's fine, but it's not going to slow down the pace of the book as a whole.

Shauna Harrison (11:24):

Speaking on that you had to cut some phrases then that were not, nautical but only found that out through research. We, we sometimes find that we'll oftentimes the, the origin story of phrases is ... like regularly that's just not, not the true origin of it. Um, so what are, what were some that you didn't, you know, you loved it or whatever, you just wanted to keep it in there, but you couldn't because it didn't fit.

Grace Tierney (11:49):

There were so many of those, I'm sure you've been burned by this as well as some of the stories for why a word or a phrase means a certain thing are so great. And you're like, Oh, I want this to be true. And then the second you started looking it's like, oh no, it's just isn't true, that's that blog post below and or your podcast episode gone, we'll have to think of something else.

Grace Tierney (12:09):

So yeah, that did happen. Now, as you may have noticed, it says, you write the book, I did sneak one or two in and just basically explained this isn't true, but it's such a good story. I had to include it. I have done that. I couldn't resist. And one which I, I haven't told my husband, I was going to say this but the only suggestion he gave me in my research was the phrase cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey. Don't worry, I'm keeping this clean. So don't panic. It was a great suggestion. And I was sure it was going to have a fantastic story. And in a way it did have a fantastic story, but not the one that I expected. So that one is still included. And if you want, I can read you that fit because I do think it's quite a fun one.

Dan Pugh (12:54):

Sure. Go for it.

Shauna Harrison (12:55):


Grace Tierney (12:56):

This expression is commonly believed to have originated in the British Royal Navy because they stacked iron cannon balls on a brass tray. Thanks to metals freezing at different temperatures the balls would roll off the tray in cold weather. Unfortunately, despite being an evocative, and slightly ribald, story - this is utter rubbish. The balls weren’t stacked in pyramids on ships because the rolling of the vessel would cause them to roll off and potentially injure the crew. From 1769 they were placed on planks, called shot garlands (not monkeys) with holes cut out to hold them in place. Plus, the relative expansion differences in brass versus iron mean a temperature drop of 100 degrees celsius is required to cause even one millimetre of a problem – in which case the ship would have frozen to smithereens long before the balls rolled. The boys who carried the gun powder were called powder monkeys so there may be some link there but it hasn’t been proven and interestingly for a phrase supposed to have originated in the Age of Sail, the first use in print was 1978. So sadly just not true,

Dan Pugh (14:04):

Like so many phrases, it's sometimes very difficult to find the true origin, but it's pretty easy to debunk a lot of the fake origin stories that are out there.

Grace Tierney (14:15):

Absolutely. Absolutely. And honestly, I do think sailors are complete devils for making up stories. They just, they have nothing better to do. They were stuck at sea in the doldrums and they would just concoct things. And I think when they got back to shore and they would just spin that yarn to their listeners in the local Tavern and everybody would go, Oh, well he's a sailor. He must know what he's saying. I swear that must have been it.

Dan Pugh (14:40):

Oh yeah. We, uh, we, we definitely find the other difficulty in research and you probably ran into this with sailing terms, is that because sailors were oftentimes a little more vulgar, in the classical sense not necessarily the way we think of vulgar now, but um, because their stories they used, uh, non-common vernacular. And, uh, they were oftentimes prone to telling tall tales. Uh, there's not a lot of recorded speech in those patterns. There's not a lot of recorded stories except from oral tradition told later.

Grace Tierney (15:13):


Dan Pugh (15:13):

So we, we definitely find the first attestation of something will be in, Oh, well it's in 1812, but almost certainly the phrase or words had been in use for 50 to a hundred years before that. And we just can't find any evidence of it.

Grace Tierney (15:29):

Finding the evidence is always the hard part. And I'd be the first to admit that I'm not an academic, so they're not all perfectly referenced, but yeah, a lot of the time it doesn't get written down until it turns off and an 18th century novel or, you know, a certain mr. Melville has a lot to answer for because of what he did.

Grace Tierney (15:47):

No, it's good because he finally wrote things down and were able to say pinpoint it to that. And you know, a few of them from French novelists and things like that, but it can be hard to get if they didn't have, you know, pirate newspapers. And some of those people may not even have been literate They were on the boats because that was the work that they could do.

Shauna Harrison (16:07):

And I think another piece of that is when, um, the primary portion of their lives were spent off shore or not on sbore, not in one location on land, then the adaptation of the language into that area would have happened by incidental meetings as opposed to what was the, like what was used by most of the sailors. So somebody on shore would hear what a couple of, you know, what the people on one ship or using those phrases or those terms, or even one sailor. And assuming that that's how all sailors talk. And so, you know, that that kind of makes it difficult as well to know how the speech really occurred, how that language really, um, when it looked like for the sailors.

Grace Tierney (16:55):

Absolutely. And I think crews weren't always, you know, monolinguistic either. Like they, they could have been taken on in different ports as, you know, the role was available, Oh, we need a new shifts boy or whatever, and you'd go on and you'd bring your set of words with you.

Dan Pugh (17:10):

That's a really good point. I hadn't thought much about that, but the fact that they bounced around all the time would mean those amalgamations of words coming into a, a joint language. That's a, yeah, that's fascinating. That's kind of blows my mind a little bit. I don't know why I didn't think of that before, but yeah,

Grace Tierney (17:25):

Well that definitely comes up and it was kind of interesting. Some of the words go way back. I mean, I think it's from the 12 hundreds, so it's a very early English or kind of Franco Norman English that was coming in on quite a lot of them. I had roots back to the Vikings, which does make sense because obviously they were fairly major navigators and boat builders, which ultimately in the long run has inspired me, that my next book will be about the Viking. So as of last year I was researching and working on that and convinced myself that I could speak old Norse. I really can't by the way, but I'd love to be able to, so a lot of the basic ship terms like boat and ship and Rudder, um, you know, port and starboard, all that kind of stuff is all Viking. So it goes way back.

Shauna Harrison (18:10):

Oh, wow. I didn't realize that. That's, that's pretty cool.

Dan Pugh (18:13):

So you have, I'm curious how long this one took you from. I mean, it's really hard to say when the start of, of writing a book is because so much of it happens before you even get the idea to write a book about it. And this isn't your first book either. So I know you've got others out. So how did this one compare to your other books and how long did you spend really focusing on, on this one, doing research and such?

Grace Tierney (18:37):

Okay. Well, it definitely took me a while before I started focusing. So I, uh, I blog every week anyway. Um, I did decide probably about 10 years ago that I would do some coastal words because I like nautical words. And, uh, so I started an occasional series. So if I came up with the nautical word, I'd put it up and I tag it as, Oh, this is my nautical series. I just thought it'd be fun to a themed thing. Um, and over time I gathered a few of those, but ultimately that probably only made it to about 10 entries. And most of them did make it into the book cause they were ones I particularly liked. That was just something that was going on in the background. And I gradually decided it would be fun to bring the blog to the next level and do the book.

Grace Tierney (19:20):

But the first one was actually all about eponyms. So those are the words that are named after people or in the case of toponyms places. Um, and that was fun because it was slightly less words and more about people, um, sort of mini biographies because it turned out that if you get your name and the dictionary, you've probably done something fairly impressive to get there or illegal. There is a villains chapter. That's all about the bad boys and girls that got their names in the dictionary. So that series became a book first and then it was like, right, I need to do another one. Cause I actually kind of enjoyed putting the book together. So this one probably starts to buy in terms of going right definite book about two years ago. And I would have written a very long candidate list of all the different potential words before I even started writing anything. So I had that done, but I hadn't researched any of them. And I started writing it in NaNoWriMo which I do every year. Not always nonfiction, usually fiction.

Shauna Harrison (20:19):

Good for you, that's a, that's quite a chore.

Grace Tierney (20:23):

Yes, it certainly is. And actually some source of, I don't know, trying to make my life even harder and I'm a NaNoWriMo mentor as well. So I'm running regional events, moderating the forums, sending out emails and writing a book at the same time. Cause you know, why do it, the easy way?

Dan Pugh (20:43):

As if 50,000 words wasn't hard enough.

Grace Tierney (20:45):

Exactly. And you do sort of feel as that mentor, you do feel quite guilty if you don't make the 50,000, which puts that extra pressure on. Now it's great because it works and I need a deadline, but I usually by November, if you don't know, but that by December, I'm usually pretty much in a heap on the floor, begging for people to take my laptop away going. I can't rise ever again because I've taken on too much in November, but there's some work that okay. I did discover that writing nonfiction is slower than writing fiction and that I had taken on too much. So I didn't get it finished that month that I worked on it for about another six to nine months doing edits, rechecking, everything, putting the index together, which takes longer than you would think. And I had it nearly ready to go by this time last year. But unfortunately I had to put an entire pin in it because my dad fell quite ill. So having gotten all that behind me now it's all systems go. So I guess in a way about a year, very long answer, I'm so sorry . You can edit that if you need to.

Dan Pugh (21:48):

No, no.

Shauna Harrison (21:48):

Yeah, we like long answers. We start with one question and write a whole hour episode about this,

Dan Pugh (21:58):

That we then have to edit down to 30 minutes. Cause we will go off on a... yeah, it's sort of our thing.

Grace Tierney (22:03):

But tangents are the best thing. That's where you find out really interesting stuff. I think.

Dan Pugh (22:07):


Shauna Harrison (22:09):

So a one, one phrase that I really enjoy that, that we researched for our podcast was, was Davy Jones locker.

Grace Tierney (22:19):

Ah, right now I wonder, did you come up with the same sort of answers as I did? Cause it's quite conflicted. I really don't think we know where that comes from.

Dan Pugh (22:28):

Exactly. Not know where it came from, but yeah, we just used a lot of times that we found it in print and how different people were using it. But

Shauna Harrison (22:38):

Yeah, I loved the different origin stories because there were a few and I actually had to kind of parse those down and share, you know, pick a few of those to share with people, but they are they're fun. But um, some of the early references were to tip pubs to a pub that was named David Jones locker. But I thought that was very interesting and, and that he would, uh, kidnap people and take their money.

Grace Tierney (23:05):

Yes, Oh yeah.

Dan Pugh (23:06):

Just the thought of David Jones, his locker was weird to me and I'm like, wait, David, that doesn't sound right. I see why they changed it to Davy.

Shauna Harrison (23:14):

Yeah. So I feel that this is one of those urban myths that sort of just turned into a its own sort of creature over time, all big time.

Grace Tierney (23:26):

And it grew legs. I mean, God, would you go into that pub? I don't think I would.

Shauna Harrison (23:30):


Grace Tierney (23:33):

There was a time period where they were really pressed ganging people all the time literally left right and center. If you were a sailor, they could just take you and it must have been terrifying.

Dan Pugh (23:44):

I could see why you'd want to stay at sea. Yeah, I'll be on the boat, thanks.

Shauna Harrison (23:48):

Maybe deter some people from getting a little too much into the sace>.

Grace Tierney (23:53):

Well. Yes. But did you see about the great Rum debate when they finally ruled out that you had your rum rational in the British Navy and it was quite late and even the use of cutlasses, they were used in 1940s to do a rescue attempt on some, some British Royal Navy ship had been taken and they got their guys back by going in, like, I dunno, Navy seals, except they had cutlasses. I thought that was ancient history, and it was like 1940s? Seriously? Yes, apparently so.

Dan Pugh (24:29):

You know, There's something to be said about it. Like, you know, we, we live in a world now where there's lots of different ways to, uh, uh, commit violence. But if somebody comes at me with the Cutlass, You know what, I'm properly scared now. I don't know what to do with that. I mean, I'm gonna probably yes, here's my wallet. What is it that you do?

Grace Tierney (24:49):

Okay. Please. Don't imply that people are going to start mugging with cutlasses. Cause if that happens, I'm outta here.

Dan Pugh (24:58):

Don't Rob people. That's the thing.

Grace Tierney (25:01):

Yeah. Robbing is bad. I'll despite having a chapter by pirates, robbing is bad.

Shauna Harrison (25:06):

I love the romanticized version of pirates.

Grace Tierney (25:08):

I think we all do. And that's why things like Priates of the Caribbean it's so popular, but the reality is a lot grimmer.

Dan Pugh (25:16):

So you've mentioned a couple of times you have a blog. So I want to make sure that we get a chance to talk about it. And so this one is not just not just nautical stuff. This is general wordfoolery, which is the name of the blog So tell us a little bit about your blog.

Grace Tierney (25:31):

Well, it's going quite a while. I started pretty much on a whim in 2009 and early days, it was a bit more patchy, but for the last five, six years, it's every Monday and I will take a word or a phrase or possibly two or three words, you know, yourself. Sometimes it needs a few, uh, I pretty much just because I liked them or somebody nominated it. So I'm very open to suggestions of words. I'm sure you guys probably take suggestions from your listeners for your phrases as well. And I'll just poke around with it. See how it was used, where it came from, how it evolved over time. Because as I'm sure you've discovered that the usage can change quite dramatically and things can even end up meaning the exact opposite of what they actually meant in the beginning. I just tinker with the words, basically and, I really enjoy it and it's great because a lot of other word geeks have found me there and there'll be a bit of chat on banter in the comments and I'll be pulled up pretty quickly if I get my Latin wrong, which is good. Cause I'm not fluent in by that. But a couple of my readers are, which is great. So they'll correct me.

Shauna Harrison (26:36):

I've pulled up your blog here in the entry that pulls up is why sultry should return to our weather forecasts. And uh, I love that. I love that. You're kind of covered just a lot of different aspects of language and different types of things. Um, I also particularly like the word sultry because it just feels nice to say it.

Grace Tierney (26:55):

Yes. And that is often how I will pick the word. So like I said, I like gollywobbler. So anything that sounds kind of funny or that has an interesting mouth feel when you actually say it is definitely a candidate.

Shauna Harrison (27:08):

On that I want to pick out a couple of, of other the, of these nautical terms, hellos and goodbye, Ahoy is, you know, like how do you use any of these in your daily life?

Grace Tierney (27:20):

Maybe I'll start, you know, campaign for some of these words need to come back. I mean, let's be honest. Fun was the last time you said mollgagger?

Shauna Harrison (27:29):

We're not using that enough!

Grace Tierney (27:31):

Yeah, and like you said, scuttlebutt is actually pretty cool. And essentially that's water cooler chat, except that water was in the bucket on the deck, you know? So these need to come back. Some of them are firmly ensconced in our lives already. And you literally go, Oh, I didn't know it was from a boat. So Ahoy and Hoy I mean, we came very close to saying Ahoy every time we answered the phone, because that was what they wanted us to use . I can live with that. Hello. We could use that face to face and just have Ahoy for Zoom calls perhaps.

Dan Pugh (28:00):

Oh yes. That's a good point. And I'm, I'm more inclined to go with, uh, Alexander Graham Bell's statement than Thomas Edison's. So I think, Ahoy and Hoy should be brought back.

Grace Tierney (28:11):

Good, good. I vote for that.

Dan Pugh (28:13):

Well, that's about all the time we have for today. So where can our listeners find more of you? We follow you on Twitter. I know, but I'm sure you're at other places. So where can they get more?

Grace Tierney (28:25):

Uh, yeah, Twitter is my main one. That's where I'm really active. And that's how I stumbled upon bunny trails, which was a lucky stumble. So that's @wordfoolery and word fool reads at word fool and then E R Y. And then the blog is the other main place where I'll, or I'll chat. I am on Facebook too. But to be honest, if you're looking for the word stuff, it's Twitter, really.

Dan Pugh (28:46):

Grace Tierney, thank you for being here and talking to us today, everybody go out and order her book "Words the Sea Gave Us" you can go onto her blog, a and find all the links on where to get that in whichever country you are in. Thanks for joining us.

Grace Tierney (29:04):

You're very welcome. And thank you very much for having me.

Shauna Harrison (29:06):

Thank you for listening to the show. It was so much fun to talk to grace and we greatly enjoyed the book. It's available now, so go check out Words The Sea Gave Us which you can find on Amazon in the US and the UK and head over to Grace's blog for her amazing content and links to other places you can find the book,

Dan Pugh (29:28):

For those of you, who've made it to the end of our episode. We're happy to announce we have another author conversation that will be airing in August. We won't say who that New York times bestselling author is yet, but we think you'll like it. Our goal is to do a couple of interview shows each year with fun and interesting word nerds, but for now, thanks again for joining us. We'll talk to you again next week. And until then, remember

Together (29:51):

Words belong to their users.


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