If you have any issues with the transcript, let Dan know at bunny trails pod at gmail dot com.
Dan: 00:00 Welcome
to bunny trails, a whimsical adventure of idioms and other turns of phrase. I'm
Dan Pugh
Shauna: 00:05 and
I'm Shauna Harrison. Each week we delve into the origin and history of an idiom
or other turn of phrase and discuss how it's been used over time. So Dan, this
is it. The end of season two.
Dan: 00:18 Yeah.
We'll be taking a month off for the holidays. This is a great time to introduce
your friends and family to the show because they can binge our more than 70
episodes to catch up over the break.
Shauna: 00:30 Whew.
Um, and of course, if you want even more content, you can join the community on
Patreon and start getting loads of extra perks, bonus mini episodes and more.
Dan: 00:41 Yeah,
sorry, sorry that we just started with basically an ad. It's not, I didn't
realize we were going to do that, but it just happened.
Shauna: 00:48 It
happened. Sorry. All right, so let's just jump into this mess. I have to admit
that I was a little bit worried about this episode because I was like, does it
have to be really Epic since it's the last one of the year? You know?
Dan: 01:02 Um,
I think that we've always kind of set a low bar, so I'm not sure they, I'm not
sure that it has to be too terribly Epic, but I do, I would love to have a
really good one since some people might not get another dose of bunny trails
for the next month.
Shauna: 01:19 2020!
That seems like the future. I mean it is technically, but it feels like really
far into the future anyway, so I was like, do we need something really deep to
think on or something super funny, but I had settled on doing a normal episode
cause you know, yeah. Um, I'm not very funny anyways, so I was like, I'll leave
that to Dan. So still a touch nervous, but you know what they say? Nothing
ventured, nothing gained.
Dan: 01:57 Nice.
Yeah. You are going to be a little bit better at these, these little bits at
the beginning. Good job.
Shauna: 02:04 All
right. Nothing ventured. Nothing gained means that one must take a risk or take
action in order to make progress or to find a reward of some kind. The origins
of today's idiom are a mystery. So I won't string you along.
Shauna: 02:25 That's
a good one actually. All right, so there is one possibility that seems fairly
likely. Um, there's an old French proverb. This is from about the 13 hundreds,
but, uh, possibly earlier. I'm going to try and say it in French. Here we go.
qui onques rien n'enprist riens n'achieva that's close. Uh, Google translate
informs me that this means who know nothing. Nothing comes to nothing. Uh, but
we know that words in language change over time. So the meaning in the 13
hundreds was more along the lines of he who never undertook anything, never
achieved anything.
Dan: 03:06 Oh,
that's kind of like you miss 100% of the shots you don't take, which I mean,
it's wrong. You didn't miss anything if you didn't take the shot. That's true.
You didn't miss, right, you still lose the cane cause the other team probably
did an easy lay up somewhere, but you still, you didn't get any points, that's
for sure. But I'm not sure that miss is right.
Shauna: 03:25 All
right, well we don't know exactly where the phrase came from, but that's a
good, good possibility. We do, however know what happened to it once it caught
on. And the man who popularized it in the 14 hundreds is pretty well known. Uh,
but before we get to him, let's look at the definition in English. So this is
from Oxford English dictionary found in Proverbs and proverbial expressions,
especially in nothing ventured, nothing gained and variants, um, frequently
formerly nothing venture, nothing have. And um, I've, I, that one's the one
that'll pop up a lot. You cannot expect to achieve anything if you never take
any risks.
Dan: 04:08 So
this is nothing ventured, nothing have was the way we would've used it in
English when it originally entered our lexicon.
Shauna: 04:17 Yes
and no sort of. There are a lot of contemporaries for the phrase, but that's
the, that's the one we'll see the most. So. All right. So in about 14, 25, uh,
Geoffery Chaucer's Troilus and Criseyde.
Shauna: 04:39 Yes.
So this is the, um, this quote is taken from a specific translation. And so
that's where, where that's coming from here. That 1425 date, he which that
nothing undertaketh, nothing any achieveth, but him looth or dear. All right.
So that sounds a little confusing, but basically if you don't do anything,
you're not gonna achieve anything later on in 1523 and this is John Froissart
and here begieith the first volume of Syrian Froissart of the Chronicles of
England, France. Sir, he that nothing adventureth, nothing getith. And this is
the same. Um, the same author is credited for the French version of the phrase.
This is a translation of that French phrase, but we, they, it actually existed
and in French, in other places. Um, earlier on in 1546, John Heywood wrote in a
dialogue containing the number in effect of all the Proverbs in the English
tongue, just a lot. Um, where as, and that's
Dan: 05:52 it's
a lot of, uh, it's a lot of a title and a lot of words, but also would be a lot
of Proverbs.
Shauna: 05:58 whereas
nothing is the King must lose his. Right. And this one sounds kind of weird,
but it was essentially saying the same thing. Um, it was just kind of a more
uh, you Royal version of the, if you don't do anything then uh, then then
nothing is gonna happen.
Dan: 06:18 I
like that that you have listed, uh, John Heywood's, uh, following volumes where
he defines it slightly differently. He does at least uses a different, um, a
different explanatory sentence.
Shauna: 06:33 One
is listed as being, uh, uh, nine years later. So in 1555, I'm also John
Heywood, 200 epigrams upon 200 Proverbs with a third hundred newly added whole
lot there. John, where nothing is a little thing doth ease where all thing is
nothing can fully please.
Dan: 06:56 Oh,
that's rhimey. I like it. Yeah. So I'm a, I'm a dr Seuss kind of guy. So the
story not next to the person, but I don't know. That's funny. I don't know. A
lot about, don't, don't look it up. I, the one thing I've learned from
listening to history podcasts is I don't want to know anything about the people
who did stuff. I just want to know about the stuff that they did
Shauna: 07:19 about
your heroes or you just not going to have any heroes. All right. And 1559,
Thomas Cooper in Biblioteca, Aliyah Tay. This quote reads fortune for there,
the bold adventures, nothing venture, nothing have. So this is the first time
that we see that nothing venture, nothing have, um, which is kind of the, the
one that stuck around the longest. Um, and people keep going back to, uh, but
we do see fortune favors the bold paired with nothing ventured, nothing, have
a, and it's almost as if the latter is a rejoinder to a fortune favors the
bold, which is a fantastic phrase. I love that phrase. And uh, I think it will
likely be its own episode next season cause I was going to do a little aside
and it turned into lots and lots of stuff, which was very cool, including some
of our favorites. Like pliney. And
Dan: 08:14 yeah,
I do. I do recall, I think last week or the week before in an episode you did.
We talked about, uh, plenty of the elder and, and how he, Oh, I just try and
whatever you say, I try and say the other ones. So it's like, it's like
settlers of Catan or settlers of Catan. I always, whatever somebody else says,
I say the other ones, if you say Katana, I say Catan. If you say pliney, I say
plenty. If you say potato, I say potato. That's not true. I've never said
Patato except just now ever. No one has ever said Patato who says Patato? I
don't know. Somebody does. I need to know listeners, please. Someone let us
know. No, no. Surely Frank Sinatra didn't say Patato right? I don't know. Did
you just randomly named a name? Do you have a Frank Sinatra poster or
something?
Dan: 09:04 No,
that's the cat that's hanging on, you know, the little kitten with his claws
up. Anyway. All right. Moving on
Shauna: 09:09 in
1580 Thomas Tusser in 500 points of good husbandrie as well for the champion or
open countries as also for the woodland, this proverb that nothing who
practices nothing shall have. All right. So basically if you want to be good at
husbandry or maybe if you want to be a good husband, I'm not sure which one
he's saying here. Um, then it makes sure you do stuff so that you can have
stuff.
Dan: 09:39 Um,
well it says it says uh, or open country also for the Woodland, right. So maybe
husbandrie like animal breeding and not husbandry like the dude listen the
1580s just don't seem like the kind of time when anyone would have written
about dudes needing to be better at anything. Like the onus would have been put
on the females at that point. Females. Sounds like a Ferengi hate that word.
What a what a silly word. Females females, Humans
Shauna: 10:10 it
is like, it is a weird word and I'm gonna now have to look up the origin of it.
Thank you.
Dan: 10:15 Oh
no, I I, yeah, I can, I can show you. I have a lot of stuff on that and he and
she and female and male and how those all all arrived from different roots.
It's actually really fascinating. Um, but anyway, I was thinking more along the
Ferengi from star Trek and the way they say it and that's what makes it weird
for me. Yes.
Dan: 10:42 That's
about what that where you mess that up really bad. That's, that's the wrong,
that's not even the right sense to do that with. It was
Shauna: 10:48 Man
it was going so good. Moving ahead to 1602 Nicolas Breton in wonders worth the
hearing writes with that the young man replied "Oh sir. Nothing venture,
nothing have" in 1614 in calendar of state colonial papers, East Indies.
And this is by sir Richard Cox. As the saying is nothing, seek nothing. Find.
Okay, so this one's a little bit different. It has that nothing seek nothing
find. So we're having a little bit of a different phrasing there, but still the
same meaning in 1668 Charles Sedley in the Mulberry garden road. Whoever caught
anything with a naked hook, nothing venture. Nothing win, all right, so we're
getting closer to our phrase there. Um, I liked that one. So a naked hook
that's talking about fishing. Um, if you don't put a worm on the hook, so you
got to spend a little to get a little in that one. Yeah. So that's where the
win came in. this is around 1704 now. Thomas Brown wrote a letter titled to
author in Duke of Buckingham. Uh, this is a section of his complete works and
this guy was kind of like a poet, comedian guy. And he would write letters as
himself, but he would also write letters as somebody else, like pretending to
be them.
Shauna: 12:15 Yeah.
This was titled the complete works of Mr. Thomas Brown in prose and verse,
serious moral comical and satirical containing, and there's a giant list of
things.
Shauna: 12:35 Right.
And I think it, I think he did that because, you know, there was so much to
what he did. He didn't just do one thing. It's not like all poems, you know,
there's, okay a dialogue between two Oxford scholars, but then if you look down
somewhere else, their affirmation letters in two parts and yeah,
Dan: 12:52 my
ninth grade grandfather wrote a book, um, just right after he came to America,
it's like 1670s or so now he came in 1684 so it would've been like 1690s
probably. Anyway, so he wrote this book and it's like 27 words long. The title
is,
Dan: 13:11 yeah.
Oh yeah. He definitely was. Definitely was, was doing that all Ellis. Yeah.
Very cool. Nice. There's a copy of it in the library at friends university, my
Alma mater. That's really awesome. It is. I can't look at it though because
it's so old that it would fall apart if anyone touched it.
Dan: 13:29 and
uh, yeah, and it, and it's behind the glass case. I asked the, uh, librarian
there if I could see it and explain the reasons and he said, absolutely. And so
we went over there and they went to look at it and he was like, Oh yeah, no,
no, nevermind. This was one of those, we cannot touch that. Not even white
glove touch it. It's going to sit right there for posterity sake. That's it.
And I was like, all right, well thanks for letting me see it. That's cool.
Shauna: 13:54 You
can see it right there. It's cool. Um, I always thought that would be the
coolest thing ever. Like you're not really cool until you are allowed in the
restricted section of the library
Dan: 14:06 And
that's why librarians are the coolest of all because they get to go wherever
they want in the library.
Shauna: 14:13 Okay.
So in his mock letter, uh, Brown wrote thou knowest the proverb, nothing do for
not. All right. So we took a little bit of an aside here. This is a moving away
from the common usage, but I did want to include this one because again, a lot
of what I found for this particular phrase is that it had several
contemporaries that stuck along for the ride. So over the course of those
couple of hundred years, we would see these kind of pop back in and out of the
lexicon as far as which version or form of the phrase was being used. This one,
nothing do for not however, did not survive the tides of the ever-changing
English language in 1791 in James Boswell's, the life of Samuel Jackson, not
Jackson. I'm really struggling with these names.
Dan: 15:06 It's
same as L Jackson is everywhere. Oh my goodness, that man. Even 1791 apparently
that's an, that's an honest mistake
Shauna: 15:17 in
1791 in James Boswell's, the life of Samuel Johnson. I am, however, generally
for trying nothing venture, nothing have. All right, so that's the one that
we've seen in, you know, a couple of times here and it's the more frequently
occurring version. We see it again in the Alexandria Gazette and daily
advertiser. And this is out of Alexandria, Virginia. The November 15th, 1819
edition. Nothing ventured, nothing have Emir trifled to be lost and much maybe
gained next Thursday will positively commenced drying the city of New York
literature and lottery number two. And we'll be drawn daily until completed.
Uh, yeah, so there's the lottery cause that's, that's what we do.
New
Speaker: 16:11 That's,
if I was going to play a lottery, which is just a tax on people who are bad at
math, then I would totally do the literature lottery. I don't even know what a
literature lottery is, but it's more likely I would do that one. Yeah. Cause
literature's way cool. Although I will admit, at least in our state, Kansas,
the lottery, much of that goes into schools. So yeah. And we still under
federal schools. Oh my goodness, man. Now I'm getting sad. No bummers. Let's
move on.
Shauna: 16:40 Okay,
so here's a popular name, a familiar name, 1841 Ralph Waldo Emerson. And this
is in essays. All things are double one against another. Tit for tat, an eye
for an eye, a tooth for tooth, blood for blood measure for measure, love for
love. Give. And it shall be given you. He, that watereth shall be watered
himself. What will you have quoth God pay for it and to take it. Nothing venture.
Nothing have, thou shall be paid exactly for what thou has done. No more. No
less. All right, so this quote highlights the overlap of concepts for this
idiom. Um, over time it was used to say that a person needs to take risks but
also does it say that they need to do the work in order to reap the rewards.
Um, so, that concept of you get out what you put in. Um, and that's how it was
used there in Emerson's writing in 1869 Emma Marshall writes in two Margaret's
nothing venture, nothing get was the end of her meditation.
Dan: 17:46 Oh
yeah. Okay. I like that cause we've done nothing have several times, nothing
ventured, nothing have. It's interesting to see it kinda transition a little
bit or at least be used occasionally is nothing ventured, nothing get,
Shauna: 17:58 yeah,
it's kind of a little bit different iteration, but leaning more towards that,
um, kind of winning concept or receiving in 1885 in century magazine, there was
this fun little quote, nothing venture, nothing have Betty replied saucily
Shauna: 18:25 Yeah,
and I'm pretty sure that she invented saucy replies too. So definitely in the
Brunswick news out of Brunswick, Georgia. This is the June 7th, 1912 edition.
The average man does throw away $5 out of his month salary. Why not save it?
Take the streetcar this morning out to the Yaryin plant and buy you one of
those lots. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, but there really is no venture
about this investment. Remember, there is no sure safer thing on earth then earth
to put your savings into.
Dan: 19:04 Oh,
that didn't age well, I mean, in fairness, earth will be fine no matter what we
humans do too. I mean, are we going to reap any financial benefits from no
quote unquote. Anyhow, no. We'll all die off and then the earth will fix itself
and will be fine.
Shauna: 19:20 Charlotte
Perkins Gilman wrote in the forerunner in 1915 nothing venture. Nothing have I
suggested, but Terry preferred faintheart narrow one fair lady. Um, so with
those last two quotes, uh, we've made our way into the early 19 hundreds and
we're still seeing have in the phrase, but we've started, we started to see
gain. Um, and I think this last quote, it really displays the implication that
this was about gain by adding the winning a fair lady phrase into that mix
there. All right. Our next quote is going to come from the letters of Hart
crane. 1930 Hart crane was a poet and this book was a collection of his letters
that he'd written since about 1916. Here's an excerpt, but nothing ventured,
nothing gained. And I can't help thinking that my mistake may warn others. All
right, finally. So we have it, the whole complete thing. We finally got to the
form of the phrase that I'm most familiar with. Um, it took a little bit longer
than I expected and as it turns out, the phrase actually continues to be seen
with as nothing ventured, nothing have into the 19 hundreds here. So actually
in 1957, Rupert Downing used it in his work, all change here, Jonah, aren't you
taking a hell of a risk? Of course we all are, but then nothing venture,
nothing have.
Dan: 20:50 Well,
bunny trails is and always will be free, but we're only able to make this
content because of the awesome support of our patrons, including Pat Rowe and
Mary Lopez, Pat Mary and many others help make sure bunny trails keeps coming
out week after week, no matter a person's financial ability. If you're in a
financially stable place and would like to support this educational art form,
we encourage you to check out the options. At $1 a month, you'll get access to
our show notes, which include sources and notes that didn't make it into the
episode. Plus you'll be helping the show along at $3 you'll get a special RSS
feed and early access to the episodes. You'll also get our behind the scenes
content, which is something we'll have plenty of over the holiday break. At $7
a month you'll get our monthly mini episodes. Those sometimes have more
information about something we've covered during the week. Sometimes it's
completely different. We've even done a few not safer work episodes about more
colorful turns of phrase at $15 and up. You'll get everything that we mentioned
before plus personal on-air recognition for supporting and sponsoring bunny
trails. There are limited supply of higher level tiers with some pretty cool
perks and access to the guts of the show. Check them all out at
www.patreon.com/bunnytrailspod or you can link to it from our website,
www.bunnytrailspod.com
Shauna: 22:11 in
1986 Janet Jackson's album control I am was released and it included the song
he doesn't know I'm alive and some of the lyrics go. Someday I'll find the
nerve to talk to him and stop acting so reserved. I told myself, girl, you got
to change because nothing ventured, nothing gained. I have, I actually really
liked this one's like a sweet song and she's just nervous about talking to this
guy that she likes. Yeah. Or I mean like it's also possible that I'm naive and
like misinterpreted it, but I'm going to go with sweet song. Yeah.
Shauna: 22:51 Thanks.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained is the first book in the celluloi series
released in April of 2019 and it was written by Brennen Tammons, five men, five
unique personalities, five different reasons. A group of men who feel
ostracized from society take on a world of organized crime each for their own
personal agenda. These men who all came from several backgrounds form a special
brotherhood to obtain the success they seek throughout the adventure. Many
trials and tribulations will form, these events, will test these men to their
ultimate potential and self-worth. How far will these men go to achieve what
they truly want? What risks will they be willing to take? Will they learn any
important lessons along the way? Keep in mind, nothing ventured, nothing
gained. That was clever usage for a book there. Wise one on Twitter? Uh, they
use the tagline, nothing ventured, nothing gained. And they, uh, posted a
picture of Indiana Jones in the temple of doom when he's got that gold head
statue thing that he tries to take off. They're replaced with the sand bag, you
know, and then ends up having to escape the giant ball. Uh, but it says a
fortune favors the bold folks. Sometimes you have to take a chance and just go
for it. Uh, now they, use the hashtag gambling Twitter. So it's like a gambling
group of people. But yeah,
Shauna: 24:21 Me,
me either. I was like, I don't know. What are they talking about? I was like,
uh, but I did like this one quite a bit. So this is, @Ivad645 on Twitter, there
is nothing wrong with trying something and failing than to never try because of
fear of failure. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. The benefits of failure
outweigh the never failing.
Dan: 24:42 Yeah,
I will. I would definitely say as a, as a small business owner, there's a
misnomer that success is a place you're trying to get to because in, at least
in American society and probably most societies, success is more the path
you're traveling. And I frequently find myself running a business and anything
I do, when I, uh, go down a road, I go down a path and then I hit failure, then
I just keep going.
Dan: 25:10 So
like, or I, you know, hang a right turn or something. You know, when I hit
failure it's like, it's like every intersection is failure and I have to make a
right turn or a left turn and sometimes it's not failure. And so I just keep
going forward and I just pass through that intersection. But the fear of
failing I think is maybe the most detrimental fear we can have to getting
towards our own self interests. I'm a big believer that failure is always an
option, so we should, we should definitely go for it.
Shauna: 25:41 Definitely.
Yeah, I think that's, that absolutely, that really captures what the phrase is
about, at least over the course of time, why it stuck around is that taking
risks is essential to, um, advancement as individuals and as a society. And the
rewards we get from are those risks that we take are really what it's about.
So, um, yeah, those, those are there really more challenges in a way. I think
the, the risks that that people see, um, in those moments. Um, and so that's
how we make our, that's how we make ourselves and our lives better. Well that
about wraps this up for today and for this year. Thank you for listening to our
show. We love you, our listeners so much. Okay. I'm getting kind of nostalgic
so Dan, if you can hurry up and say something weird to distract me.
Dan: 26:37 Actually
I'll just keep going on, push through cause nothing ventured, nothing gained,
right. Word of mouth is the best advertising a show can get and we have relied
on you to grow the show. And we've more than doubled our downloads in 2019. So
thank you so much for listening to us. Thanks for being with us. Thanks for
telling your friends about the show. Thanks for sharing things on Twitter and
Facebook and Instagram and liking and subscribing and rating and all of these
different things. Thanks for growing with us and thanks for joining us. Week
after week, we'll talk to you again, January 15th of 2020. And until then,
remember,
No comments:
Post a Comment