Wednesday, August 21, 2019

Episode 59: Old Dog New Tricks Transcript

Click on “Read More” for the full transcript.

We used Temi to auto transcribe this, then Dan went through and checked it based on the show notes. He tried really hard on it, but this kind of stuff isn't his specialty. So if you notice anything confusing, please comment on this post so Dan can look at it and clarify anything.

Shauna:                               00:00                    Welcome to Bunny Trails, a whimsical adventure of idioms and other turns of phrase. I'm Shauna Harrison.
Dan:                                     00:05                    And I'm Dan Pugh. Each week we delve into the origin and history of an idiom or other turn of phrase and discuss how it's been used over time. This week I want to talk about an old phrase that I've never really liked much. You can't teach an old dog new tricks.
Shauna:                               00:19                    Why don't, why don't you like this phrase?
Dan:                                     00:21                    First of all, what does the phrase mean to you?
Shauna:                               00:23                    Well, I always took it as like referring instead of old dog, but I always thought it was actually talking about people is how I have interpreted it. And, like once somebody stuck in their ways like you're not going to change him. Didn't have anything to do with tricks. Maybe I might be wrong about the meaning of this phrase.
Dan:                                     00:39                    No, no, you're, you're spot on with the idiom.
Shauna:                               00:41                    Okay.
Dan:                                     00:42                    So from the Oxford English dictionary, when one is accustomed to doing things a certain way, it's difficult to change or adapt. And I do think that there's a little bit of truth to that. If a person is accustomed to doing something in one way, then doing it a different way will be difficult. Especially if they don't find a valid reason that they've bought into for making a change.
Shauna:                               01:06                    Right.
Dan:                                     01:06                    So they may not be emotionally invested in making a change. They, it may be a technological solution that is different than anything they've ever used. I am comfortable on windows PC because that is all I'd ever used in my life. And the first time I was handed an iPad and asked to do something, I found it very uncomfortable for me. And that's not because I'm an 'old dog' or anything, it was simply because it was different and shortcut keys were different and I didn't know where to find things.
Dan:                                     01:41                    It's like getting a new cell phone the first week you're like, AHHH, unless you have, unless you're going from the same brand or the same brand or the same brand name, but if you switch cell phones, it's different.
Shauna:                               01:49                    I switched between Mac and, um, and uh, whatever those other products are all the time. Terrible.
Dan:                                     01:58                    Alright. So wow. Obviously one half of us are a an applephile over here.
Shauna:                               02:03                    I don't even know if that's true. Like I, I don't have a preference one over the other. I don't think...
Dan:                                     02:11                    All hail Steve Jobs...
Shauna:                               02:11                    oh, I don't think I feel that that way...
Dan:                                     02:14                    He was... At the risk of offending all of our apple users. Steve jobs was kind of a jerk.
Shauna:                               02:20                    Maybe not the nicest, but I do, I do like my Mac book pro for design, like graphic design purposes. It's pretty bad ass. Wait, can I say that?
Dan:                                     02:28                    Well you just did. If there was a beep then you'll know you couldn't. So I guess my point isn't an apple versus not apple debate. I don't mean that. I just use as an example. You when you're used to doing something one way than doing it a different way it can be difficult and that's where this, that's what this idiom means. However, that is just the book definition of it. The realistic way that I see it used, I think often has an element of age discrimination built-in. The whole concept of an old dog that if you're doing, if you were older, you have more trouble doing a thing. And I see this applied in a unfair proportion to older people with technology. And I don't think that that's fair. I certainly know many exceptions to that concept in my life. I had an employee, he was the oldest person in our office and he ran most of our technology stuff, not because he had to, but because he enjoyed it.
Dan:                                     03:29                    He liked staying up on it. And he was more technologically savvy than most of our staff and equally technologically savvy with, with a few of our others who were early adopters. I'll just say. And this man was in his late sixties so you know, I, I don't like the phrase because it has an inherent implication of age discrimination that I'm not a big fan of. But now I'm curious to hear what the ladies from the vocal fry have to say because they have an entire podcast on vocal discriminations and discriminations in words.
Shauna:                               04:03                    I love the vocal fries.
Dan:                                     04:05                    I know. So, yes. I'm, I'm very curious. So I might, we may have to ask them about it, uh, after, after we've released this episode and see what their thoughts are. They may even have an episode on it. All right. As, as we're going to see here, the phrase wasn't so absolute as you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
Dan:                                     04:22                    In fact, that wasn't even the phrase. The phrase was, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks or it's difficult to teach an old dog new tricks.
Shauna:                               04:30                    Which is far more accurate.
Dan:                                     04:32                    Yes. The whole concept of you can't, is really a more modern invention. So we'll, we'll look at that here too. So the first time we see something like this in print is in 1530 and it is talking specifically about dogs, not humans.
Shauna:                               04:50                    That's some time ago.
Shauna:                               04:52                    John Fitzherbert's book, the Book of Husbandry. And he says, and it's not our exact phrase, but it's kind of, it's the same concept, right? "The dog must learn it when he is a welp or else it will not be for it as hard to make an old dog to stoop." So in this case he's saying it's hard. It's hard to get a, an older dog to do something if you hadn't...
Shauna:                               05:13                    To obey.
Dan:                                     05:13                    if you hadn't had taught them to trick earlier, it's certainly not impossible as we will explore in some research here in a little bit.
Shauna:                               05:20                    When we say book of husbandry, this is like breeding dog breeding ?
Dan:                                     05:23                    Well, yeah. Any animal breeding in general,.
Shauna:                               05:26                    that's kind of cool.
Dan:                                     05:27                    The first time we see it attested as our phrase, it's hard to teach an old dog tricks or hard to teach an old dog new tricks is in the 16 hundreds with this example from John Philippon in 1636 in his book Camden's remains. "It is hard to teach an old dog tricks" and see it doesn't have new in there, but in this case it's just any tricks. I always felt like the new would be superfluous anyway because if you're teaching the old dog things, it wouldn't be an old trick. It would be a new trick. So like that's already a, it just sounds like we've, we've just added extra words for sure.
Shauna:                               06:01                    Well, did we add, did we add the new, because we were saying, you know, is that that technological piece or something like that come into play?
Dan:                                     06:08                    No, because even as early as 1775, we see examples of this phrase, uh, being used with, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. In fact, here's a, a book by a Cortez Telfair in, Town and Country Spelling Book. And this is 1775. And basically this is a very difficult to read book because there's no formatting. It's just a series of sentences that are phrases. So here's an example. "He that will not work, should not eat. Too much of one thing is good for naught. It is good to have two strings to one's bow. It is hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Touch a galled horse on his back and he will wince." So these are, and it's literally like a period and then it goes to the next one and it's all on like, it's just this running lines. So it's not even like they went to the next line on it.
Shauna:                               07:03                    Right. I, I've seen this before. Uh, this is how my 15 year old writes essays
Dan:                                     07:09                    HA! Anyway. So we see them using old dog new tricks in this case too. Uh, so it's, it's something that we've, we've seen since the 16 hundreds used pretty frequently as it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Okay. In 1835, we see "The absolute difficulty with which an old dog experiences in learning new tricks", which was a phrase from Chambers' works in while he was in Edinburgh.
Shauna:                               07:35                    Can I say I love the 18 hundreds? Like thank you all of you who wrote, uh, this wonderfully, uh, flowery text in the 18 hundreds.
Dan:                                     07:45                    The absolute difficulty with which an old dog experiences in learning new tricks, right? Yeah. Alright. So then we also see it though we see it both in a, I wouldn't say we don't, we don't, we wouldn't say we ever really see in a positive way. It's always kind of built to mean a negative. Right. But, uh, sometimes it can be more forceful than others I guess. So September 7th, 1839 and this is out of the Woodville Republican in Woodville, Mississippi are speaking of Mr Van Buren, who is the president of the United States. "Well, for our own part admitting Mr Van Buren to be honest, he is so prone to error that we do not believe a wise people ought to trust him with the management of their affairs. It is a homely but true adage that it is hard to learn an old dog new tricks. Mr Van Buren has lived to the age of between 50 and 60 years in absolute political error. Is it not reasonable to fear that he will end his days in like errors?".
Shauna:                               08:42                    My goodness.
Dan:                                     08:42                    Yeah, so that was a very nice way of using the phrase and then we see it later in 1893 used in the Kansas Agitator, which admittedly is seems like it's going to be angry. The Kansas Agitator, by the way, is a newspaper that all of the articles I read here really reminded me of today's rhetoric. So my point is that we haven't really changed anything. We're still very rude to each other if we're not, if we're not having to look at each other face to face when we do it. Yeah.
Shauna:                               09:12                    Yup. That's what people say. Like, oh, I can't believe people have gotten so, so cruel. Or they're like this all the time. Like now it's Kinda always been that way. Like have you read stuff from back in the day?
Dan:                                     09:22                    Right. Old newspapers have really helped me understand how mean we always have been to each other if we're not looking at each other in the face. All right. This is September 28th, 1893 out of Garnett, Kansas, the Kansas Agitator. "Last week, the journal vomited all over the populist candidates for county office and indulge in an unusual amount of billingsgate. We are not at all surprised at this. A person who for years has been in the habit of pandering to the lowest element of society could hardly break away from his old habits. To use a slang phrase, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. The trouble with the Journal's editor now is that he has the post office age so badly that it drives him almost crazy at times and he is hardly accountable for what he says.".
Shauna:                               10:02                    Man.
Dan:                                     10:03                    Yeah, that's some strong words. And also very common place now where we're accusing people of not being true to their words or you know, the things they said now are different than what they said in the past as if people can't grow, you know, as a human.
Shauna:                               10:19                    Humans are static. Didn't you know that?
Dan:                                     10:23                    I am learning that now. All right, so from The Courier, December 19th, 1896 and this is The Courier out of Lincoln, Nebraska, I noticed that there was a game called you cannot teach an old dog new tricks. And this was in the comedy pages there in that, in that particular one. So we'll notice here we say it uses the phrase, you cannot teach an old dog new tricks. This is in the late 18 hundreds and this is really where we're starting to see that start a come about a little bit more we... before we've seen, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks and we'll continue to see. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks throughout the, even today as the phrases used. However, it's really in the late 1890s and then early 19 hundreds that we start seeing the phrase move into a more, you can't instead of a, it's hard.
Shauna:                               11:15                    Gotcha.
Dan:                                     11:15                    And I don't know that that was an intentional change. I can't find anything that would indicate it was an intentional change from one to the next. But I think it was just an easy flow of the words. It's hard to teach, whereas you can't teach, you know, it's just, especially with our harsher sound. Yeah. Yeah. So from the conservative, uh, May 3rd, 1900, this is out of, uh, Nebraska and the Lincoln, Nebraska as well. "I had seen too many cases where men had reached a certain point in their professions and then they had run against a stone wall in the shape of inability to perform greater things. Every man should have a specialty and should not be content to know so much or to just go so far in it. It is hard to teach an old dog new tricks. But I decided that the experiment should be tried on me."
Dan:                                     12:01                    He was talking about going overseas to learn something else. So now he is backtracking things that he has said before and saying, I've decided it's going to happen to me anyway. I'm the one who's going overseas to do this thing.
Shauna:                               12:13                    That's Kinda neat. I like that one.
Dan:                                     12:15                    Yeah, I like that one because it is using the idiom as an idiom and describing exactly what the idiom means. In the Bluegrass Blade out of Lexington, Kentucky, August 15th, 1909 and this is from, this is a very interesting piece because it comes from a, it comes from a lecture that F.E. DeStone MD gave before the San Francisco materialist association. Materialists would be akin to atheism now. It's yet it was the idea and then it's evolved and it means something a little bit different now. But it's the idea that we are not driven by faith or some sort of higher power, but we're driven by our biological processes.
Dan:                                     13:00                    And so they shunned the, the belief in God, not so much because they thought it was bad to believe in higher powers or things, but because it just wasn't true and it would be problematic moving forward if we continue to have people to teach people to believe in faith, if it meant taking away from the facts that we know about the universe as we've learned it. And this is, this is 1909 so this is one of the things that F.E. DeStone says and I read the first part of this speech and then I'll, I'll hit the part with our phrase.
Dan:                                     13:32                    "It is with some little hesitancy that I take this platform not having done any public speaking for over three years and also knowing the antagonism the subject in hand usually inspires in the minds of materialists. I feel that I have to be strictly on my good behavior to create an atmosphere of harmony which is necessary to helpful discussion as I have no use for any established ism. I feel that my open mindedness should incline you to meet me kindly on those grounds acceptable to us both. And thus before I finished, we may find that we have many things in common."
Dan:                                     14:06                    He goes on to say "Adults are hard to persuade from preconceived ideas and even when convinced well more often than otherwise returned to the teachings of their childhood. The old idiom, it is hard to teach an old dog new tricks holds of the human bi-pod quite as much as with other animals here.".
Dan:                                     14:23                    And in fact, the case that he was just making is that the materialist should fashion the education they want to do off of what the church is doing, which is to indoctrinate, indoctrinate them with the ideas while they're young and impressionable because it is difficult to remove someone from those ideas after 20 or 30 years of being taught that this is the way that it should work.
Dan:                                     14:46                    I don't know how he was received. I wasn't able to find follow up articles in any newspapers that said how his words were received, but it was very, I found it very interesting, uh, because as I read the beginning of his passage that he said, it is with some little hesitancy that I take this platform. Uh, I find that anytime I want to post on social media, I feel the exact same way. Anytime I know the antagonism, the subject in hand usually inspires in the minds of, in, you know, put whatever ism you want there. And he even says that, which I use, I have no use for any established ism. Yes. And I'm like, wow, 1909, oh my goodness. America, we have, we have changed the way we do it, but we really haven't changed what we're doing.
Shauna:                               15:33                    No, I like this guy. Well, this one passage.
Dan:                                     15:37                    I don't, I don't necessarily agree with his concept, uh, either of humans or dogs for that matter that they can't learn new things. But the, the concept that he's trying to get across with this, I think is valid. That yes, teaching people things when they're young will help, will be helpful to them. And it's something that they will help form them.
Shauna:                               16:00                    Just to, I just enjoyed the way he...
Dan:                                     16:04                    Very cautiously tried to approach something?
Shauna:                               16:07                    Yeah!
Dan:                                     16:07                    Uh, I would imagine he probably got torn to shreds. I only say that because on Twitter it doesn't matter if you were to say, I don't really have a stand on this. And I think that we maybe have more in common than you believe, but the world is, is, is a complex place and truth resists simplicity.
Shauna:                               16:24                    Oh no, you'd be burned to death.
Dan:                                     16:26                    All right. So this is from the Clovis News at a Clovis New Mexico, December 23rd, 1920. "It has been frequently said that you can't teach an old dog new tricks, but a Chicago newspaper apparently thinks otherwise. A reporter for the paper spends each day and traveling about the city accosting all sorts of people and testing their politeness he finds means of coming in contact with the clerk's offices, housewives and the public and the store businessmen in their offices, public officials on duty, judges, ministers, housewives, and the public generally."
Dan:                                     16:56                    His frustration was that this guy was unscrupulous and would basically was very rude and callous and upset to sensibilities of the people. So I don't know, does that mean he really was rude and callous or does that mean he was just not willing to let people, uh, get along in their status quo? And so if you challenge the status quo, you are evil and to be defeated. I don't know. I don't know which way it is.
Shauna:                               17:25                    It's interesting. I mean, he was a reporter too, so trying to do his job like that can sometimes be unpleasant.
Dan:                                     17:31                    Yeah, that's true. That's fair. All right. We don't normally include art or in the early days is only occasionally, but I do want to point everyone to the patreon where I'm going to link to a piece of artwork from July, 1931. I'm not going to put the picture on Patreon. I'm going to link to the website where you can find and purchase prints of the picture cause I don't want anyone to think that I'm trying to steal the artwork for our game. But this is called old dog new tricks by Frederick Stanley. And it's a painting of a, uh, an older dog. It looks like a Beagle and he is sitting, um, on one side of a, of a crate. And on the other side is a young boy, uh, probably somewhere between 10 and 12 years of age with a Hula Hoop in his hand and he's trying to entice the dog to jump through the Hula Hoop. And it's very Norman Rockwell esque
Shauna:                               18:21                    I was going to say the same thing yet. It's got that vibe going for sure. Sunday evening post feel going.
Dan:                                     18:26                    Yeah, absolutely. So I definitely would, I would definitely say go check it out on the Patreon and it'll be on there and it'll be free to see for everybody. I think it's interesting to take a look at. So as we start wrapping up here, I just want to give a couple of other examples from the out of the evening star in Washington DC, this is February 7th, 1943 in an article called, I'm counting on you. This is by Phyllis Deganne and it says, "Can old dog, learn new tricks, a tender and understanding story of married life." This is a short story that was published in the paper there.
Shauna:                               18:59                    Well, it sounds like it might be like, "yes" is the answer.
Dan:                                     19:02                    Yes. I think an old dog could learn new tricks is the point they're trying to make here. And uh, after the break, we're going to talk a little bit more about the fact that you can in fact based on research and evidence, teach old dogs new tricks because anyone who's ever owned dogs can tell you that. You of course you can teach. Does the dog really like laying down in the sun beam? Yes, probably. Do I really like laying down in the sunbeam? Yes. Yes I do. But does that mean I can't learn new things? Well, no, of course not... Karen
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Dan:                                     20:28                    A 1991 book by Ted Baer, B a e r was called how to teach your old dog new tricks. And this is the synopsis, "A well known and highly praised dog trainer proves that by using the humane approach when training a dog, an owner can teach an old dog new tricks. How-to Advice plus 25 tricks in all."
Shauna:                               20:48                    Sweet. Yeah, 25 tricks. I didn't know there were that many dog tricks. I mean, I know like for those really cool dogs that like do all the jumping through hoops and climbing up things, but like just to just an average dog can do 25 tricks.
Dan:                                     21:01                    I don't know. None of, none of my dogs were ever that well-taught.
Shauna:                               21:06                    Um, my dog growing up was a Bouvier or something. The ones with the really long hair and it's curly. He was beautiful, but he, his trick was mostly to lay on the air conditioning vent. That's, that's Kinda what he did. And turn into Jello when you tried to pick him up.
Dan:                                     21:20                    That's, are you sure you're not describing your two year old?
Shauna:                               21:24                    I have very similar, I was prepared for children by this point.
Dan:                                     21:27                    Fair enough. All right, so there's a song by Seasick Steve and it's actually also the title of his fifth album, You can't teach an old dog new tricks. This is kind of a blues rock vibe. It was released in May, 2011 cool. And I actually saw it, this is probably the first time that I listened to a song and then I went back and I restarted it. I listened to it again. I just really liked the vibe of it. And the first time, I don't know that I listened to the lyrics as much as they should have. So then I played it again so I could listen to lyrics. I think you'll enjoy it. We'll put a link to it on the Patreon. These are the words: There must be something wrong with me What it is I can't quite see I can't seem to do nothing right. Maybe I need to change my style Been this way for a long long while Maybe there's a few things I ought to fix. Can you teach an old dog new tricks?
Shauna:                               22:15                    Yeah, I like that.
Dan:                                     22:16                    Imagine a kind of an older gravelly voice guy singing about...
Shauna:                               22:20                    And the guitar.
Dan:                                     22:22                    Oh yeah. With a blues rock vibe. Oh yeah.
Shauna:                               22:27                    I can already, like, feel it.
Dan:                                     22:28                    Knowing a little bit about your, your musical tastes. I think you would enjoy it. Although, uh, maybe not right now while you're on your Amy Winehouse kick,.
Shauna:                               22:36                    Right, I totally am.
Dan:                                     22:40                    All right. So in 2016, Stanley Coren who is a PhD., and also has written a lot of books about dogs in general wrote in Psychology Daily, in which he has a regular column called the Canine Corner that You Can Teach An Old Dog New Tricks. And he cites an article that had just been published by the Messerli Research Institute, part of the University of Vienna,. And I saw three or four other things that referenced the same article. And so I'm just going to lump them all in here because Stanley's was the only one that had like another published, smart ish person talking about them. Everybody else was just like their own standard websites, you know, just saying, well, they said this. So it must be true as if every research article, ever is true, but his article actually talks a little bit about some of that behind it too. But his point was the overall assessment he took was "old dogs may learn more slowly, however they will remember."
Shauna:                               23:32                    That's nice.
Dan:                                     23:33                    Even even Google has gotten into the action with this. Uh, they released a clip in March, 2019 so earlier this year, and I'll just describe the clip. So, uh, and I'll, and we'll post it on the Patreon on as well. We see a room that has been ransacked presumably by Cooper, the dog, uh, the camera pans to see a large older dog sitting in the corner in his face buried. So you can't see it right up against the wall. So basically you know how the dog sees sometimes when they're hiding their face. And so you can't see it.
Dan:                                     24:00                    And the humor, the human is saying, Cooper did you do this? And Cooper is clearly like head pushed up against the wall. Like just trying to hide as if I don't see you can't see me, I can't see you and none of this. And then of course it jumps to the Google homepage and some fancy music and it's, and Google's asking, can you teach an old dog new tricks? And the ads meant to show that you can find anything you need on Google. But it also implies that it doesn't matter if you're uncomfortable with a computer or the Internet. Google is easy to use in here to help. So it kind of plays off of the literal, you know, can you teach an old dog new tricks? But also the idiom as well. And I found it to be a relatively clever ad.
Shauna:                               24:39                    This topic actually came up for a family member of mine who had been in the same profession for like decades and then started getting a new job. And in that new position, the first couple of weeks were a little rough and some of the other, uh, employees were getting frustrated, but uh, but they picked it up and once, once they had it, they were one of the fastest, uh, fastest employees with the computer system. But having used not used anything like that for, for decades, you know, just doing the same thing. So I think it's just one of those people, people forget or, you know, especially our, our generation has a tendency to think that if you're not picking it up quickly, you're just dumb or can't get it or something. Right.
Dan:                                     25:19                    But our generation is also the ones that are like, if you have to wait 30 seconds for fries at McDonald's, you're really, really mad. Yeah.
Shauna:                               25:24                    Or the, the little la loop de loop on the computer while you're waiting for it to load. If it has to, if it spins like more than half a turn, then too long.
Dan:                                     25:32                    I'm just going to refresh the page. Yeah, fine. I'll do this another time. So when I was researching this episode, I came across another phrase that I was vaguely familiar with from my days growing up in Texas. "There's life in this old dog yet."
Shauna:                               25:45                    O,. Yeah.
Dan:                                     25:46                    And I won't go into much about this. It probably deserves to, uh, to be a part of another episode, uh, that I am currently researching about old age idioms. So that's something you can look forward to. But the Oxford English dictionary defines there's life in this old dog yet, and its variants as "an assertion of continuing competence, strength, et Cetera, not withstanding evidence to the contrary." And I liked this because even though we haven't quite explored it yet, and it doesn't really have any actual factual basis in it, but I like to imagine the thought that this idiom cropped up as a way to counter, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Well, there's life in this old dog yet.
Shauna:                               26:26                    Yeah. So, like a rejoinder.
Dan:                                     26:28                    Yeah, exactly. So while, while these two phrases really don't have anything to do with each other other than the fact that dog has been used as a counterpart for a human with doglike traits it since the 12 hundreds other than that, there's really not a whole lot of of a similarity between these two, but I do like the idea that it might be if you were doing an idiom battle back and forth at each other, then I think this would be a perfect response to, you can't teach an old dog new tricks because of course you can.
Dan:                                     26:56                    Well, that about wraps this up for today. Thank you so much for joining us. We want to ask two special tasks of you this week. First, would you be willing to rate us on your favorite podcasting app and leave a review? And second, we'd like you to tell at least two people about the show that you think might like it. It might be a book lover or a writer or just someone you know who likes a little humor with their word history, but either way, we'd like you to take those two steps. Rate the show and tell other people about this show, and if you mentioned us on Twitter or on other social media platforms, you can tag the Hashtag #BunnyTrails.
Shauna:                               27:32                    Word of mouth is really the best way to grow a podcast and your help is greatly appreciated. If you want to join the community and chat more about the show or phrases and their stories in general, you can join the community on Patreon. You'll find the link to that in everything else we do at Thanks again for joining us and we'll talk to you again next week. Until then, remember,
Together:                           27:55                    words belong to their users.

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