We used Temi to auto-transcribe this, then Dan went through and checked it based on the show notes. He tried really hard on it, but this kind of stuff isn't his specialty. So if you notice anything confusing, please comment on this post so Dan can look at it and clarify anything.
Dan: 00:00 Welcome
to Bunny Trails, a whimsical adventure of idioms and other turns of phrase, I'm
Dan Pugh
Dan: 00:10 Well
inspired by Moxie's episode last week on the Your Brain On Facts! podcast where
she commented that she had her window open because of the beautiful weather
outside. I decided that I wanted to follow in her suit. So as an attempt to one
up you Moxie, we are recording outside, just straight up outside on the back
deck. Um, but it is beautiful. We have kind of a bird retreat back here and uh,
so anyone who is listening, you will hear the audio quality is a little bit
different today for this episode because we are one outside and two, there are
birds everywhere and it's just a light rain. So you may hear that pitter patter
on the roof. So that's, that's what's up Shauna.
Shauna: 00:56 Pretty
much it's glorious is what's happening. Each week we delve into the origin and
history of an idiom or other turn of phrase and discuss how it's been used over
time. This often takes us down some fun and interesting research rabbit holes.
This week we're talking good vibes and happy times or total elation. Some
express these ideas by saying they are on cloud nine.
Dan: 01:19 Oh.
So us being outside with the light rain around us means this is the perfect
episode for this week,
Shauna: 01:29 Yeah.
So some believe that this idiom originated with the Buddhist steps of
enlightenment and that being on cloud nine was symbolic of the ultimate goal.
There are actually 10 levels of enlightenment. So, uh, uh, but the 10 levels of
the Bodhisattva which is, um, these are the stages to the path of
enlightenment. This is actually how one would achieve Buddhahood.
Dan: 02:28 And
then high school a little bit in the two thousands anyway, now I feel old. Keep
going.
Shauna: 02:33 Okay,
so the cloud of Dharma and this level is the level immediately before
Buddhahood in which the last traces of afflictions are taken away like a cloud
that pours rain on the earth. These boat-eh-sav-ah... I'm so sorry people,
Shauna: 02:52 These
Bodhisattva spread the Dharma in all directions and each sentient being absorbs
what it need, what it needs in order to grow spiritually.
Dan: 03:04 I
didn't, it is. Come on guys. Cause it could have been a little more original
than your naming schemes.
Shauna: 03:08 Okay.
Well generally you know it's Bodhisattva's not Buddha. I mean like these are
the, these, they're the ones who are on the path to become Buddha.They're
speaking another language.
Dan: 03:21 Wait,
just what's happened is for you to say, is this our weird translation then is
that just aren't American translation? Oh yeah. And had it been translated
today rather than whenever it was, it would've been like if it were a problem,
we would have put the word gate at the end of it and our translation.
Dan: 03:37 No,
I'm referring to like Watergate. And waterbottle gate and everything-gate. Like
if it's a problem, you put a gate at the end of it. That's literally what our
media does.
Dan: 03:51 Like
it started with the Watergate Hotel and now we just put 'gate' at the end as a,
as a suffix to every problem. If there was a problem with trains it'd be
train-gate. I mean like airline-gate. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what
it is. Oh my tree-gate. The trees are attacking. The Ents have come to life!
Old Man Willow.
Dan: 04:13 Sorry.
I'm rereading The Fellowship of The Ring right now so old man Willow is high in
my head.
Shauna: 04:19 Gotcha.
Uh, so the thing with this though is that the cloud of Dharma is actually the
10th level of enlightenment, not the ninth. So there's that kind of, you know,
misstep that doesn't work. Um, but honestly, there just isn't any evidence, um,
in, in literature that would support that this is where the phrase started,
Shauna: 04:43 But
it's fun. Uh, one excellent theory on how we arrived at this phrase is the
cloud classification system, which was developed by the father of British
meteorology, Luke Howard. This English chemist introduced a series of Latin
terms describing the appearance of cloud types. There were four main categories
and 10 total cloud types. And number nine on the list is cumulus.
Shauna: 05:20 So
if you imagine those perfect, beautiful, puffy like popcorn, like clouds, those
are number nine clouds. And I suppose if you're gonna spend your time on a
cloud, then cloud nine seems like a good place to be.
Dan: 05:31 Yeah.
Club cumulus. Yeah, absolutely. I mainly, unless you're like Thor and then you
want to be on top of like a wall cloud or shelf cloud, you know?
Dan: 05:39 Those
are the mesocyclones, the big super cells that we get in the Midwest that
tornado spawn from.
Dan: 05:48 I
imagine him, I imagined Thor, and specifically Chris Hemsworth's Thor from the
marvel lineup would be riding it like a chariot ...
Dan: 06:01 ...pulled
by tornadoes and he is just riding. That is, if Thor were to come to the
Midwest, that's what would be happening.
Dan: 06:10 Because
it's America and if he's going to be in America, he's going to do it the
American way.
Dan: 06:13 He's
going to ride a mesocyclone with tornadoes pulling him as the, as his chariot
and horses.
Dan: 06:22 Yeah,
that'd be it. Wow. Okay. Now I'm going to need somebody to, uh, illustrate that
and throw that up on Twitter. Thanks.
Shauna: 06:31 All
right. So that theory is wonderful as well. However, this phrase has some
history, um, before the system of classification became official. So, um, yeah,
or even well known enough to be turned into an idiom. So again, Fun Story and I
love the connection there, but that's not quite it. Uh, this...
Dan: 06:54 I
really wanted it, especially after the whole Thor thing. I really wanted that
to be it. Okay, fine.
Shauna: 07:00 Yeah,
unfortunately. So it has more to do with the word cloud than it does the
number. Okay. Um, typically when an idiom or a phrase has a number in it,
that's actually where I start looking because there's usually some connection
there. Uh, for this one, the number seems to be irrelevant.
Dan: 07:16 Wait,
so like you can be like, I'm, I'm cloud two and you're just like, oh well
that's, wait, no. Cause I would just be like if someone said they're own cloud
12, I'd be like so "happier than happy". Now it's a rating scale with
nine being happy!
Shauna: 07:26 Well
right now it's like are you just trying to be more extreme or what are we doing
here? Actually seven was a very common choice. And, but you also get that like
seventh heaven concepts thrown in there.
Shauna: 07:40 Right,
and so both seven and nine. Do you have some religious connection, connotations
there that kind of
Shauna: 07:56 or
is that the geek card? I never know which is which, because I think I'm both,
so I,
Dan: 08:02 In
the same way I don't care whether it's an idiom or, um, simile or, um, aphorism.
I don't care.
Dan: 08:09 Yes.
And I also still don't care. Oh yeah. But to somebody who is being pedantic, then
the probably geek and nerd are very different things.
Shauna: 08:19 Thank
you Helen. So seven was a common choice and if anything, the correlation
between any religious religious significance and the idiom was ascribed to it
later on. Um, perhaps that again, that seventh heaven concept and other phrases
becoming popular. Um, and in line with that, that just made sense. Uh, but I
think we might cover seventh heaven later, so, right. Yeah. So I'm going to
move on to cloud. Yeah.
Shauna: 08:48 So
what is the cloud exactly, Dan there you asking me. I am. Do you have a scientific
definition because sometimes you pull those out.
Shauna: 09:07 Well,
I thought you might know. So. All right, so these days people mainly agree that
a cloud is like a poof of dampness in the air. That's my definition.
Dan: 09:16 Oh,
I love that. "Poof of dampness". That is, can we go back to before I
gave the definition and I give that one instead? That's awesome. It's clouds
are kind of like this, a poof of d... poof of dampness. I couldn't even say it
without laughing again.
Shauna: 09:30 Or,
or you could also say it's a grouping of tiny water droplettes. I've found
these on the Internet. Actually the poof of dampness was mine and then I found
a grouping of tiny water droplettes. Okay. It's a specific word there. He,
yeah.
Shauna: 09:49 Um,
but a better definition perhaps thanks to a Oxford English dictionary is
"a visible mass of condensed watery vapor floating in the air at some
considerable height above the general surface of the ground".
Dan: 10:08 But
I'm not a meteorologist or anything. I'm definitely not trained in like
atmospheric sciences. Uh, my job is normally to explain to other people what
those scientific things are. So condensed water vapor is good. Yes. Although I
might add the visible part. The visible condensed water vapor.
Dan: 10:27 I'm
going to have to, to the national weather service about that are our rep in the
area and see what he thinks,
Shauna: 10:31 See
what he thinks? Good, good point. Um, the scientific definition for cloud is ah
long and scientific.
Shauna: 10:44 Yeah,
it has lots of, well there are lots of, of pieces to it. So that's why we went
with uh, that general knowledge version. But the usage for the word cloud can
actually be traced back to about 1300 for the current usage of the, you know,
the poof of dampness version and a, so in 1340 Richard Rolle in Psalter wrote,
"clouds of the air". And I read this because, uh, I then questioned
why would we need to specify clouds of the air?
Dan: 11:15 Okay.
That's an actually a very good point. Now that you say that, it didn't seem
weird to me. I just thought they were just being like flowy as, as old-timey
writers we're want to be. But now that you say that, I'm like, oh wait, I don't
know. Why did we have to say that?
Shauna: 11:30 Yeah,
and that's because this is when clouds started being the word 'clouds' started
being used to refer to clouds of the air. And prior to that...
Dan: 11:40 Wait,
so cloud's meant something else and for like the whatever, 13, whatever you
said. 1300 yeah.
Shauna: 11:46 Okay.
So cloud's had been around for hundreds of years before this. Uh, by that I
don't mean...
Shauna: 11:53 I
don't mean like the condensed watery vapor, uh, kind, but rather the word
'cloud' and it was attributed to other stuffs. Okay.
Dan: 12:11 Well
today's show is sponsored by our patrons on Patreon. You make Bunny Trails
possible. We'd like to thank all our patrons and especially our logamorphology
interns, Charlie Moore, Pat Rowe and Mary Halsig. Patreon.com is a subscription
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Dan: 12:46 Okay,
Shauna, now quick tell me what, what other things were clouds cause I'm super
interested.
Shauna: 12:50 All
right, well, so Oxford English dictionary is going to help us again, pin this
down. This is circa 893. So in the eight hundreds, uh, in Orosius' History. Uh,
we see the phrase "clouds fellen of the mountain".
Dan: 13:16 I
mean I wonder, I mean surely in the eight hundreds we knew that that was, well,
I don't know. Now I'm trying to pin my understanding of a cloud onto their
understanding of the cloud, which doesn't work. So I, I'll digress.
Shauna: 13:28 Right,
they started with this... so, so a cloud was actually like a, so a massive
rock. So like a group of rocks or a chunk of rock or anything related to that
or chunk of dirt or earth was referred to as a cloud. And so if that was
falling from the, from a mountain, then you have this like chunk of earth
falling from down the side of a mountain or if it's just sitting there on the
ground, it was also a cloud.
Dan: 13:55 Wow.
So it wasn't the, it wasn't that the mountains where it's that like boulders
that fell off of it were clouds, clouds falling from the mountain
Shauna: 14:02 and
also like hills were referred to as clouds sometimes cause they were like, they
probably felt mound of, yeah. And I think I would think also like that
disruption in the, maybe in the horizon or I'm not sure where it originally,
how it got to there, but I know it got here.
Dan: 14:15 Oh,
that's amazing. That sounds like a background for a different podcast. But
yeah, right now I just need to learn about it, maybe we'll talk about it on
Patreon.
Shauna: 14:24 Yeah,
there's a whole history of the word cloud and it's fascinating and you should
really read about it. If you are as nerdy as me and you'll love how that
happens. Um, but it was actually so starting 800 there. Now we go get all the
way to the early 13 hundreds, uh, around and, and that's when we started to see
clouds of the air up here like that, that one from Rolle. And then around 14,
25, the term clouds started being used a little bit more figuratively. So we
have a new definition given "Often rhetorically used in plural." So
with the s at the end clouds also, formerly it was used singularly for the same
meeting "for the sky or the heavens".
Shauna: 15:17 Yeah.
And the destruction of Troy, uh, this was released in 1540. Um, but potentially
written around 1400. Destruction of Troy. The gest hystoriale of the
destruction of Troy: an alliterative romance translated from Guido de Colonna's
Hystoria Troiana
Shauna: 15:56 Yes.
Other figurative uses for cloud include it meaning a feeling of doom or a sad
demeanor, a troublesome time, et cetera. Under a cloud is sometimes used to say
that someone is going through a rough time or feeling sad or depressed. And a
lot of times you hear people say that there's like a dark cloud. So that's
more, you know, you add that sort of negative connotation by including, uh, a
defining word or term that might make it, you know, kind of sad.
Shauna: 16:25 So
all of this has led us to a very interesting juxtaposition of terms where the
right combination of the word cloud and a few other words, uh, variably, uh,
and you can have various very different meanings coming from a phrase all using
cloud in them. So I think that's kind of cool. And also from the Oxford English
dictionary In The Clouds, which means "obscure, mystical, fanciful, unreal
above the range of ordinary understanding."
Shauna: 16:56 And
this is generally combining the notions of obscurity and elevation you've got.
And then also there are some other colloquial phrases. So on cloud seven or
cloud nine is one that's mostly in the United States. But some, another phrase
that I found along this one was up in a balloon and I thought that was kind of
funny to mean the same thing as kind of that uh, that in the clouds are on
cloud seven are on cloud nine
Shauna: 17:25 I
haven't either, but there were some, some recorded references to it. So in, so
Samuel Johnson wrote in The Rambler in 1751, "they pry into the worlds of
conjecture and amuse themselves with phantoms in the clouds."
Shauna: 17:40 And
so this was talking about that, you know, kind of being in a different realm by
being in the clouds, being in a different state in an 1832 speech by T. Atwood
and this was recorded in Life, "In the clouds were they [ the House of
Lords] cradled... In the clouds will they die."
Shauna: 17:59 These
individuals, the House of Lords, they were born into a different world and will
not ever experience the, the same as what we experience. This usage of it in
the clouds was more common than on a cloud or on cloud nine in the 16 hundreds
to 18 hundreds but had the same meaning. They were used in the same ways and
all of these are generally recorded together as, as their meaning and usage
being fairly interchangeable.
Shauna: 18:28 And
so you'll even find that, that there were some translations where they, you one
translation used on cloud nine and another trans; used, translation used in the
clouds. So then jumping ahead in Joel Relihan's 1933 translation of Apuleius’
The Golden Ass, or, A Book of Changes , we see it used somewhat sarcastically…
which is fitting if you are familiar with the tale.
Shauna: 18:58 The
Metamorphoses of Apuleius , which Augustine of Hippo referred to as The Golden
Ass (Asinus aureus),
Shauna: 18:58 Yes...
Is the only ancient Roman novel in Latin to survive in its entirety. The
protagonist of the novel is called Lucius. At the end of the novel
Shauna: 18:58 Uh,
at the end of the novel he is revealed to be from Madaurus, the hometown of Apuleius
himself. The plot revolves around the protagonist's curiosity and insatiable
desire to see and practice magic. While trying to perform a spell to transform
into a bird, he is accidentally transformed into an ass. This leads to a long
journey, literal and metaphorical, filled with, uh, various inset tales. He
finally finds salvation through the intervention of the goddess Isis, whose
cult he joins.
Dan: 19:53 As
was common at the time. This was an allegorical story, um, pro most likely
commenting on politics or politicians of the era, which is why that satire, uh,
is, is fantastic. And this is the quote. "What would you look at this? She
says she tries to impress my pity by the appeal of her swelling belly that she
would make me a blessed grandmother, don't you know, by her glorious offspring.
So this would put me on cloud nine to be called grandmother. When in the flower
and vigor of my age to have the son of some cheap handmaiden called Venus
grandson."
Shauna: 20:33 Here
we have another example of our idiom, but with the number seven and this is
from 1963 this is in the Times "Instead of cloud seven philosophy, we got
something much more materialistic."
Dan: 20:45 If
had started this research myself, I also would have started with it probably
with the number and been like, you know, looking at the number and they'll, the
name used together. So it was very interesting to me that this has taken a, an
interesting turn to move into, um, a spot where I thought it meant one thing
the whole time, but really the number is less relevant. And cloud seven is also
equally or was at one time equally used.
Dan: 21:18 I
was not alive yet, but I mean my parents were alive at that point. Yeah. All
right. So tell me a little bit about how this is used. Uh, today.
Shauna: 21:27 So
this is from the July 2nd, 2018 from Billboard. And a, this is by Gary Graff
wrote this, "The musical Ain't Too Proud: The Life and Times of The
Temptations is marching towards Broadway, and the group's Otis Williams is on ,
well, cloud nine about how things are going with it so far.”
Shauna: 21:48 And
that was from his article, Otis Williams on the Success of 'Ain't Too Proud:
The Life and Times of The Temptations' Musical and the Group's New Album
Shauna: 21:55 Generally
we see on cloud nine use today to express excitement or this celebratory mood.
Uh, though occasionally it's used to describe an alternative state of
consciousness. Uh, I did find a definition for that on urban dictionary.
Shauna: 22:11 I
know, but it wasn't, it wasn't the top three. Um, and so that, that tells me
that actually not that many people use it that way, even even today. Um, uh,
but I, I do want to share from urban dictionary because the top three examples
are a perfect representation of our idiom. The first definition that was given
was actually heaven or a utopia of pleasure. And, uh, the example was we were
floating on cloud nine was also used to say a state of total euphoria. Um, and
this example was after winning the lottery, he was on cloud nine.
Dan: 22:51 I'd
be on cloud 10. Actually, I don't know which one 10 was in that list that you
gave earlier.
Shauna: 23:13 The
uh, so uh, definition number three, the state of being out of your head because
you have recently fallen in love. My friend Elena decided to make more calculus
classes because she was out of her mind on cloud nine. I don't know why that
leads you to take more calculus.
Dan: 23:32 Obviously
Shauna. This is because the person that she has fallen head over heels for is
in the calculus classes are in the math classes
Dan: 23:44 so
I was like most Elena is now taking several more classes than she ever wanted
to because the object of our desire is also taking said classes.
Shauna: 23:54 That
is some serious insight. You've got going. Oh my goodness. I was like, maybe
somebody, maybe Elena likes calculus as much as I do.
Dan: 24:01 No,
no. You were clouded by your love of calculus that you couldn't understand
Elena's love for this person.
Shauna: 24:07 Jeez.
Okay. So at living on cloud underscore nine on Twitter, uh, this is living on
cloud nine at tips for finding bliss every day. I'm Andrea Nine mother
lifestyle blogger, chef Fashionista, smitten with the mitten gal doing my best
to find bliss every day. Yeah.
Dan: 24:29 Oh
Wow. So that's another, that's two episodes in a row where we have featured
somebody who, uh, had a nice play on their name.
Dan: 24:36 We
talked about Jenny Lam last week, who by the way has Google alerts set on her
and uh, then saw the episode when it popped up. So then she retweeted it. So
thank you very much Jenny. We are fans of yours and I'm glad that you were a
fan of ours as well.
Dan: 24:54 Yes.
While you were on the lamb now with this beautiful stuff and now that you're
back, I'm floating on cloud nine, so we can continue.
Shauna: 25:01 Ah,
um, also at N-Y-N-A bug. So I'm guessing that's Nina bug. Uh, and she, her name
though is on cloud nine-uh. Oh, maybe it's NynaBug. Oh my goodness. Yes. What
is wrong with me?
Shauna: 25:19 That's
a cute name also by the way. Nyna Bug's. The cutest thing that's happened.
Okay. Surviving and or thriving climate, weather junkie. Meowied with children,
j/k they're cats.
Shauna: 25:46 Yes.
And then, uh, finally from Twitter, this is a @Kristine. Uh, okay. So I'm going
to just spell this one cause it's with a k. So at K, r I. S. T. I. N. E. E. S.
P. I. N. O. O. She posted I'm on cloud nine with hearty face and hearts. And
uh, this is accompanied with a picture of a giant pile of candy mute. Is that a
cloud of candy?
Dan: 26:16 No.
No, it's all just milk chocolate. Okay. All of it is chocolate. It's and, and
not even, not even cocoa, but like milk chocolate. There's um, Hershey's and
there's um, um, Toblerones and
Dan: 26:31 Uh,
there's some Cadbury's dairy milk, uh, Eminem's there's some things in the
background that I can't quite make out because I'm getting old and I don't have
my reading glasses on. So
Dan: 26:43 No,
I don't think it's where there's, cause everything else is chocolate. That's
milkduds.
Shauna: 26:47 Oh,
there's the ones that are wrapped all pretty, it starts with an eight, an f...
furr... Chocolates. Oh, those truffles or something. So good.
Shauna: 26:58 All
right. I love on cloud nine ah still, it's still used in a similar way even
though the phrase hasn't been consistent. Um, you know, when we're saying were
on cloud nine, everybody's happy. And I think that's great. Um, and it's, you
know, I just like, I kind of like celebrating. So there's that.
Shauna: 27:18 Uh,
in this idiom we're representing a concept or a feeling and it's something that
we can describe, but it's harder to give a very specific, uh, actual definition
for feelings and concepts. And so I love when we can use language to express
something and it brings everyone together when trying to define it would
actually just kind of would be more challenging, um, and, and actually make it
harder for people to understand one another. So, well, that about wraps us up
for today. I'd also like to say a big thank you to those who've posted reviews
for the show. It's the easiest way to support your favorite podcast. Best of
all, it's free. If you have a suggestion for an idiom or other turn of phrase
or you just want to chat, you can catch us on Twitter and Instagram and
occasionally even on Facebook, all @bunnytrailspod or you can get links to
everything we do at www.bunnytrailspod.com
Dan: 28:15 well
this is episode 47 and we are almost to our big milestone, which means you are
running out of time to help us tell your story. Uh, is there a turn of phrase
that means something important to you or your family? Then we want to hear
about it so you reach out to us on social media or email us
bunnytrailspod@gmail.com. We'd love to hear about your favorite phrase and why
you love it. The deadline to send your stuff is Sunday, May 26th it can be
written or you can send an audio file or send us a message and we'll reach back
out to you. Most of all, we want to know what turns of phrase are important to
you. And why, so let us know. It does not have to be English, by the way. I
know we do English stuff here, but if you want to talk a little bit about what
a, an idiom or a phrase that's important to you or your family means, and it's
in another language, we would also love to hear that. So definitely send that.
If you've got an example of that, thanks again for joining us. We'll talk to
you again next week. And until then, remember,
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